Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: liketofish on June 29, 2010, 12:23:25 PM
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Can we explain why DFO's closure of the Fraser to Chinook fishing untill July 15 this year?
If they operate on scientific facts and make decision based on test fishery, then how do we explain the number on the Albion test fishery on chinook return so far? I run report for the same period (may 30 to June 29) for 2008, 2009 & 2010, and the numbers are:
2007 - 39
2008 - 90
2009 - 148
2010 - 197
So on what basis is the current closure depended on ???
Are they operating on 'scare-crow' mentality now after the sockeye crash?
Once again, sporties are having reduced fishing opportunity, this time for no obvious reason.
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liketofish
Numbers of fish taken by the albion test fishery don't mean that a large number of fish are making it to the spawning grounds.
Catch numbers should be reduced by all user groups if you want to see fish in the future.
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Wow Buck haven't seen you in a long while. How ya been?
liketofish
This mentality is EXACTLY why the salmon runs are decreasing with every year.
We see a few more fish coming through then the historic average, etc and say "WOOT, must be more fish around, lets open it up and kill em' all." The truth is that no one knows what is going on in the ocean right now, or what is happening with the fishs' patterns with weather changes, etc. For example, the Stamp river last year. They had a good early return and opened it up to commercial and sporties and then figured out "S**T that was all the fish, they just came early this year, there goes the run."
Truthfully I would love to see the rivers closed for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE for 8 years minimum. I personally could give up fishing for that long in order to hopefully give some runs a chance, maybe even experience some good fishing in the years after the closure. At minimum make a catch and release fishery available. I'm personally glad that they are operating on scare crow mentality right now and not opening it, and I wish they would keep it closed for good in the Fraser. Most of the fishing that goes on there is a gong show anyways.
People need to stop complaining about their own reduced fishing opportunities and think about how screwed up the salmon stocks are. At least you still have an opening and fish around, maybe get into the mind thought that the fishing may be good when it does open in a few weeks ???
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I am just disgusted at the way the fishery is being managed. It's obvious the salmon are in danger and the closure would be justified if our government would have the river shut down for all users.. but as we sit on the side lines we are watching the natives rape the river of everything that swims and our government is allowing them to do it. Why do any of us even buy licenses. Its a slap in the face for the tax paying anglers who spend millions of dollars on our fisheries every year. Then when we do get openings they give us slot limits !!! its a joke. Im sure the natives release all there bigger springs right?? Bigger nets grids?? give me a break. I't seems to me that the natives should be all for the future of our salmon and the future of their kids salmon but it is clear that they dont care any longer and just want the most they can get before there are none left. The sporties could be fishing the fraser all year for springs and it wouldn't be a spec of sand compared to the amount of fish the nets are taking. Once again the taxpaying citizens have less of a right then the non tax paying. What can we do??? block roads off have protest marches?? unless your a minority they will probably have little effect... its a very sad day in age... were let down again!!!! WE need to stand up for our rights!!!
My 2 cents
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Sport fishing is a right?
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The natives have number limits. They are only aloud certain amounts of fish just like every one else.
They have certain openings, saying that what sporties would catch is just a grain of sand is a very unbiased and uneducated opinion.
Now I know you may not agree with that, but it is the truth, not all of them are fishing illegally and taking more than they are aloud.
I don't agree with the nets, like I said, it should be closed for everyone for a minimum of 8 years.
But singling out on group of users is just plain stupid, everyone is at fault and it isn't just the natives.
If you really want to get down to it (and get to science behind it), it is everyone (even people that don't fish) who is the problem.
Warmer temps due to greenhouse gases cause algae and plakton blooms (salmon food) to occur earlier and in shorter, larger events. The reason pinks are becoming so abundant is because of how fast they migrate to the ocean, they are the first ones out to sea hitting all of these earlier and larger blooms. Later fish like sockeye aren't hitting the blooms anymore as they are occurring earlier, therefore there is a lack of food. Lack of food + commercial fishing in Alaska + Predation + nets in rivers + any openings means fewer fish coming back.
And complaining about a slot limit is just plain stupid as well... don't want to protect the larger females that carry more eggs so we get fewer and smaller fish back every year ??? Licences, whether you like it or not do provide hatcheries with money such as the Vedder so you can get some fish for the freezer for food. Stop complaining, or stop fishing, one more person off the river isn't a problem. AND we need to stop blaming and pointing fingers at every other sector of fishing, we can't bring back the stocks if every one is fighting over the few remaining fish rather than trying to keep them alive.
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I was just ranting and i know i was abit over the top.. i totally agree with most of what you said i would love nothing more then for the river to be closed for as long as it takes to see a positive impact. as far as numbers and openings for the natives there's no way they can even begin to speculate how many fish are being taken the bottom line is the nets should be out.
I feel they probably know their doing serious damage to the salmon runs but are not doing enough to save em.. As far a picking on a single user group they are the only ones netting the fraser thus me pointing them out. I agree there are tons of reasons the stocks are dwindling but fish that do make it thru the other obstacles are being met with certain doom in there most vunerable and critical part of their journey. The goverment has acknowledged that the stocks are in trouble but give them openings anyways... i feel the natives should know better and choose to not push their right to harvest in the matter they are doing it. This day in age theres no reason to have to live on fish!! theres plenty of other food opportunities out there....
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The natives have number limits. They are only aloud certain amounts of fish just like every one else.
Do they stick to those number limits? How could you tell, they self-monitor.
They have certain openings,
They have certain opening but they often fish around the clock. During non-openings they string out hidden set nets. They often use drift nets during non-openings.
Now I know you may not agree with that, but it is the truth, not all of them are fishing illegally and taking more than they are aloud.
Your statement may be the truth. What percentage do you believe are fishing illegally? The catch numbers they report are self monitored numbers do you believe they are accurate? If they are allocated certain numbers for food and ceremony purposes why are there so many cheap fish available for sale?
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I quess we should ask the americans how they have just had one of the largest chinook runs in the columbia river since the 1930s. must be doing something right even with warming waters etc.
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there is absolutely no way to determine how many fish the natives take...but you can be sure its much much higher than they like to admit...commercial guys are not much better...i really dont see how we can continue to support a commercial fishery on the fraser...though i am obviously biased...sporties take so few fish in comparison to the nets...time to decrease the amount of fish they are allocated to take...
I do believe all species of salmon should have a catch card....not just chinook and steelhead. 10 coho is a reasonable number...some guys cant even kill that many adults(chris :D) but the slab and tamahi regulars are taking a lot more than that. I knew a guy who bragged about killing 60 coho a few years ago...He didn't have much of an answer when I asked him why.
we could go a step further and say 10 adult salmon a season....the problem there though is with online licensing it makes it so easy to cheat.
either way cooperation with every interest group would be ideal...but there is so much animosity between commercials guys and natives over netting and selling of fish....and sporties vs both of them...its unlikely the summer run of salmon will get any better....the fall run could be next...especially with the roe fishery that takes place on pinks and chum....
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Well..from the bellyaching going on..I have no sympathies for anyone, including myself.
The natives haven't taken a whole lot of fish so far this year, just 641 pieces. When I look at the bar fishing pressure going on during an average day when it is open, and it likely will be open on July 15 for 4 springs.... 1 over and 3 under the 67 cm limit or whatever it will be this year--it is obvious that the First Nations Groups will probably take as many as the River Anglers. However, on an average day when the bars are accessible, when the fishing is good and the various anglers are on the river, there are probably a few hundred taken some days.
I'm a Saltwater dude 99.99% of the time and I can tell you that what I spend to target the Springs off the Fraser Mouth makes what a river angler spends look like pocket change. My daily limit will probably be 2 springs after July 15...both of which must be over 65 cm. I'll go out there and troll miles and miles of water in a days fishing and be lucky if I see 2 fish to the boat---feeding the seals and sea lions as the day goes by. Then I'll be waiting until the next time the weather is nice enough to get out again in the productive areas in the ocean. The entire fleet of boats (charters and private recreational anglers) out on a given weekend may boat a couple of dozen fish if the schools happen to wander around off the Fraser in the areas conducive to effective trolling...however..there are only a few dozen crab trap floats to dodge while trolling.
Yet, here I am, reading a forum where everyone complains about their opportunities pointing fingers and bellyaching about this that and the other thing and no one offers any solutions or acts upon them. The WCVI guys in Areas 19 and 20 and other areas sit quietly by releasing all these fish which those who fish in the rivers are going to get a crack at.
There's nothing to complain about....and don't get me wrong..I'm not complaining. DFO is trying to get it right...actually conserving the stocks and seeking to protect it and the rogue groups are as well (at least no one has any pictures of illegal fishing on the Rivers in recent days)...yet people are STILL complaining about this that and the other thing!!!!.
I say, if the sport fishers are going to be open in the river, then us saltchuck guys should be open as well.
Anyways, I know I'll get a crack at these springs, and you river folks will as well, so quietyerbichin and tie up your BEST spin'nglows, use your bouncin' betties for paperweights instead of fishing gear when it's open and open a pop and chill out.
.02!!!!
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I quess we should ask the americans how they have just had one of the largest chinook runs in the columbia river since the 1930s. must be doing something right even with warming waters etc.
This is what we are talking about. There is ample evidence that chinook run is healthy. It is better than prior years, and the Coumbia has a very strong run. So what is the scientific or statistical justification for the delayed opening?
Everyday, there is no need to blame any sport fisherman wishing to have more fishing opportunities for the decline in stock. What facts are you based on? You must be kidding. We sporties take 2% of fish and are responsible for fish decline? If it is that bad, then perhaps we should all hang up the rods for good and be a buddist or a PETA member. :o ;D
This thread is not about debates on personal ethics of fishing. No good fishermen will fish when the fish stock is endangered. Saying that, I don't agree with the PETA-like mentality about fishing either. Sporties are not taking big enough number to hurt fish stock, so there is no point to call others stupid if they want to fish more often. 8 years not fishing? Perhaps some of you can do it, but for most of us normal fishing souls, our fishing gears would have been sold long before the 8 years closure is finished and DFO will see very few people interested to buy their licenses. ;D
The chinook run has been healthy based on figures and other runs. Why the closure or delayed opening? Ya, I don't mind if all user groups are off the river if the runs are low, but when some groups are still allowed to slaughtering the fish with potent gill nets..... ??? Perhaps Einstein can solve the puzzling equation. ;D
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I believe it's something to do with priority as per some treaty agreements with the natives. DFO first determines whether there is enough escapement for reproduction, then the native are given an opportunity for ceremonial and food purposes. Then the sporties get an opportunity.
Because the natives have had minimal opportunity to fish for chinook, DFO cannot allow the sporties an opportunity.
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I believe it's something to do with priority as per some treaty agreements with the natives. DFO first determines whether there is enough escapement for reproduction, then the native are given an opportunity for ceremonial and food purposes. Then the sporties get an opportunity.
Because the natives have had minimal opportunity to fish for chinook, DFO cannot allow the sporties an opportunity.
100% Correct!
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This is what we are talking about. There is ample evidence that chinook run is healthy. It is better than prior years, and the Coumbia has a very strong run. So what is the scientific or statistical justification for the delayed opening?
Everyday, there is no need to blame any sport fisherman wishing to have more fishing opportunities for the decline in stock. What facts are you based on? You must be kidding. We sporties take 2% of fish and are responsible for fish decline? If it is that bad, then perhaps we should all hang up the rods for good and be a buddist or a PETA member. :o ;D
This thread is not about debates on personal ethics of fishing. No good fishermen will fish when the fish stock is endangered. Saying that, I don't agree with the PETA-like mentality about fishing either. Sporties are not taking big enough number to hurt fish stock, so there is no point to call others stupid if they want to fish more often. 8 years not fishing? Perhaps some of you can do it, but for most of us normal fishing souls, our fishing gears would have been sold long before the 8 years closure is finished and DFO will see very few people interested to buy their licenses. ;D
The chinook run has been healthy based on figures and other runs. Why the closure or delayed opening? Ya, I don't mind if all user groups are off the river if the runs are low, but when some groups are still allowed to slaughtering the fish with potent gill nets..... ??? Perhaps Einstein can solve the puzzling equation. ;D
What exactly is your definition of "healthy"? There are several stocks of concern which are entering the river at the same time as many non endangered runs and those endangered stocks are not doing well..if anything, they're nearing extinction numbers with just a few handfuls of returning fish in some cases.
I love it when I hear people talk about "healthy" runs when in fact those runs have never been more vulnerable.
If people want to know what a "healthy" run is they need to go back in time 40 years, then you'll understand what "healthy" is...it's a relative term.
50% of the Canneries on the BC Coast shut down by the 40's. Now that's relative to today.....never mind 40 years ago.
The salmon runs aren't "healthy", we've just come to accept the mediocre runs of today as norms.
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liketofish
Where do you get the 2% from? I truthfully believe that we sporties take a heck of a lot more fish then we would like to think. I know a lot of people that could easily wack their 4 springs a day during the July period, how many people are out there on a given day? You may not think that the 100's of bar fishers out there are doing nothing to hurt the stocks, but I personally think that they get a lot more of the % then you are lead to believe.
Example... Say 10 guys go into a small stream like the Coquihalla. They fish 10 days and each take a fish per day, you've now pretty much wiped out that whole run. What we are doing now on the Fraser is not the exact same, but it is happening on a larger scale at a slower rate. The other part is that some of these early springs you catch may indeed be part of an endangered run where the fish only umber in hundreds in that river, in that case EVERY fish counts.
Saying this run is healthy is not a very good justification either. You are comparing these numbers to the 2 years previous. Unless you've missed a lot of time out on the water you would know stocks have been collapsing drastically for 4 years. O goody, we have 50 more fish in a net then the year previous which wasn't a good year. Problem is that we keep adjusting numbers, keep lowering the mandatory escapement numbers so that we can say "O look, we are at normal levels and we have enough fish to go around." And by the way... Americans put a hell of a lot more money into hatchery programs. The Columbia is HEAVILY enhanced and they release unreal amounts of smolts, so you would think eventually some of those would have to go back.
I am far from being a PETA member, and I am FAR from being behind the netting that the natives get to do. My personal opinion is that if they want to net their "traditional" mounts, they should have to use their "traditional" methods like using a canoe with a dip net, or a bark net rather then the huge gill/drift nets and motor boats they have out now.
Last thing I'll leave with is that you say you could not lay down your rod for 8 years for the run to recover, and that you would no longer fish and buy a licence when it re-opens. I would rather lay down my rod for 8 years and hit up some lakes, etc then watch the salmon go right into extinction and never have a chance to fish for them again unless I do road trips to Alaska.
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2% is always a number thrown around for the take of the recreation sector. If you read enough about this kind of info on user groups harvest, this number comes out. I am not going to debate you based on an exact %, but it does not take rocket science to know that sporties with one rod and one hook are not going to hurt fish stock as compared to when other groups are using nets.
Like I say, some forum members always lay blame and guilt on others who wish to have better or fairer fishing opportunities, and blame them for causing fish stock collapse. This is silly indeed in the bigger picture of things.
4 springs per day? I have never seen it happened with any body that I know. Many spring trips are skunked as a norm. People just want to have a fair chance to catch a fish, to have a day out to the river, but very few actually catch a spring on the bars. So I don't know how real is the figure. To use such extreme example is not being fair to your fellow fishermen, I think. Even on good days on any popular bar, it is rare to see more than 30 fish taken in total, and that is with weekend crowd. At least that is my experience.
Anyways, the thread is not about ethics, but about return numbers and ocean survival, which test fisheries plus catches in other areas can give a glimpse of the return. Yes, the Americans had much more stocking and money, but their returns were not always as high. This article from down south tells the bright picture:
http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2010/06/26/1070608/columbia-salmon-fishery-fit-for.html
The columbia return was a disappointment last year but not this year. There are so many fish out there in the ocean that they predict 650K fish return, which is 250K more than last year. Our test fishery is also way more than before (2 times more than 2008). So if we could open the fishery as scheduled on June 1st 2 years ago, why delay it till July 15 this year when the numbers are much higher.
Everyday, I respect your concern for fish stock conservation. Most seasoned anglers are. If DFO is sincere about protecting the endangered run of some small stocks, why the heck they allow the nets now? Isn't conservation concern a higher mandate than FN food fishery? If some run can be endangered by guys with a rod & hook, it can be wiped out for sure by hundreds of nets.That is the hypocrisy about the whole thing.
I happen to believe that DFO is again using the shutting down of a small impact group (the sporties) as always for public consumption that they are doing something to conserve stock but in reality our impact is minimal. I support shutting down all user groups if some endangered run is running, like the Stuart sockeye run. If not, open it when the numbers are higher than prior years and other areas are reporting historic return. Stop playing PR or political game. That is my 2c.
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i dont think anyone is taking 4 fish...only 1 adult can be taken and i highly doubt any flossers are getting jacks...maybe the odd bar guy.
2% is not an unreasonable number considering we can only take 1 adult a day...whereas nets take many adults at once.
dan, the coquihalla example is pretty bad...i doubt anyone is up there killing wild summer runs right now ::)
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I love to fish as im sure the bulk of everybody here does but fishing for salmon with the stocks declining the way they are makes to sense. My Mom always said two wrongs dont make a right. Try fishing for something else.
My 2cents
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Every year its the same old thing...the natives are taking too many fish and the sporties are not getting thier fair share. The natives have a constitutional right to fish and thats not going to change ever. I would have to agree with closing down the river for say 4 yrs, one full cycle to see if that would improve the stocks.Alot of fisherman have thousands of dollars tied up in big jet boats and fishing gear so therefore they have a god given right to fish the fraser.I dont revolve my whole life around whether or not i will get to kill springs on the river.Wake up... the sockeye have collasped and now we want to keep fishing the chinnooks into collaspe.Time to find other things to do with our hard earned dollars and pursue sustainable fisheries elsewhere like off the west coast of the island.I made a trip out there last July and it was awesome!
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I am one of those fisherman with thousands of dollars tied up in gear and a big jet boat but dont feel " a god given right" to fish for salmon. That is an ignorant opion in my books. Dont be jelous Hater
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Every year its the same old thing...the natives are taking too many fish and the sporties are not getting thier fair share. The natives have a constitutional right to fish and thats not going to change ever. I would have to agree with closing down the river for say 4 yrs, one full cycle to see if that would improve the stocks.Alot of fisherman have thousands of dollars tied up in big jet boats and fishing gear so therefore they have a god given right to fish the fraser.I dont revolve my whole life around whether or not i will get to kill springs on the river.Wake up... the sockeye have collasped and now we want to keep fishing the chinnooks into collaspe.Time to find other things to do with our hard earned dollars and pursue sustainable fisheries elsewhere like off the west coast of the island.I made a trip out there last July and it was awesome!
Thats because most of those fish off the West Coast are American fish. Americans are doing something right and its time for us to follow in their footsteps.
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Dennis T you are the one that needs to wake up.... closing the river for five or ten cycles would help if the nets were to be completely out of the river but even if the river was "closed" to everyone the natives will protest and still fish. Our government is scared to take the nesasary mesures to properly enforce it . Every year there are more and more nets in the river as it seems like a free for all before the fish are gone. If you've read the posts most sporties would be glad to see the fishery closed for as long as it took.. but it's pointless if the nets are still in the river. Sporties sitting at home just means less eyes on the river to see whats really going on! Its not about the meat my friends.
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Dennis T you are the one that needs to wake up.... closing the river for five or ten cycles would help if the nets were to be completely out of the river but even if the river was "closed" to everyone the natives will protest and still fish. Our government is scared to take the nesasary mesures to properly enforce it . Every year there are more and more nets in the river as it seems like a free for all before the fish are gone. If you've read the posts most sporties would be glad to see the fishery closed for as long as it took.. but it's pointless if the nets are still in the river. Sporties sitting at home just means less eyes on the river to see whats really going on! Its not about the meat my friends.
I dont disagree the natives are doing what you suggest.My point is...they will always be allowed to put thier nets in the river and no amount of complaining will change that. I do disagree however when you suggest the fraser is not a meat fishery. The majority of people who fish the fraser are there to kill chinooks.I dont want to be fishing the chinnoks into collaspe and be part of the problem,two wrongs dont make it right.Thats why im choosing to look for other sustainable fisheries that have no conservation concerns such as the fabulous fishing that can be had on the west coast of the island.
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Murder murder murder. Kill kill kill.
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PETA might have just arrived. Since when we fishermen have become murderers? Shhhhhhhh. ;D
By the way, I just scan the 2007 return and for the same period it only had 39 fish. So this year is almost 5 times more fish and we are not allowed to fish until 1.5 months after the usual start. What science is this openning/closure thing based on? Are we saying DFO and its scientists had gone to sleep in those years that they could allow opening June 1st with those low numbers. I mean, if now they think near 200 fish in test fishery is indicative of a low return, what science did they use to justify those earlier June 1st openings then? If the June 1st openings for the low number would kill lots of fish by the sporties, then explain why the offsprings of these reduced escapees are a lot more abundant than before.
I stick to the gun that this closure is not justified at all. It is just a scare-crow or knee-jerk reaction. If the test fishery is not something to use for deciding opening & closing the fishery, then why the heck let those test nets do their killings daily (ya, right, killings ;D). Those fish die for nothing for sure. I don't care if I get to fish now or not, as July 15 is only days away. But just have to express my take on this unjustfied closure. If fishermen don't voice their displeasure with DFO when their actions are not justifed, they can surely get away with 'murder'. Doesn't Ironnoggin's thread on 'No Father's Day gift from DFO' convey the same message that we sporties's right are not respected?
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Well maybe it was in 2007 they errored by opening it too early.
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And now that I'm here, when the DFO were doing creel surveys on the scales bar in Hope early in the years of the onset of bottom bouncing it was adding up to 1000 springs per week, so maybe one man with one rod doesn't make a difference but guaranteed 3000 men with 3000 rods on evdry hot bar in the river will deffinately make a difference. I'm just as avid a fisherman as anybody but there comes a time to take a step back for conservation purposes.
If the natives are allowed to fish so be it, I cannot do anything about that but there is no denying that shutting down the commercial and sport fishery will allow a greater escapement of springs to the spawning beds and that has to happen before we kill every fish in the river.
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Nearly all summer run Fraser chinook stocks are crashing, the exception being the SouthThompson which although way down from historic numbers seem to be doing better than others. The major concern is for 4 and 5 year old fish, hence the size slots. These fish would have spawned in 2005-6 so using catch rates from Albion (a test fishery that is intended to measure trends, not abundance) in 2007 is irrelevant.
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Been away fishing for 4 days, must get some comments in here too but after I write, The Journal later. I am sure Dave will like my comments. ;D ;D ;D
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And now that I'm here, when the DFO were doing creel surveys on the scales bar in Hope early in the years of the onset of bottom bouncing it was adding up to 1000 springs per week, so maybe one man with one rod doesn't make a difference but guaranteed 3000 men with 3000 rods on evdry hot bar in the river will deffinately make a difference. I'm just as avid a fisherman as anybody but there comes a time to take a step back for conservation purposes.
If the natives are allowed to fish so be it, I cannot do anything about that but there is no denying that shutting down the commercial and sport fishery will allow a greater escapement of springs to the spawning beds and that has to happen before we kill every fish in the river.
There goes the bouncing debates again. Hmmm, 1000 fish per week? Perhaps the bar rods should go there for a week and see how many they can catch & witness the pitiful scenes of skunked bottom bouncers most of the time. I have bounced for decade plus there and never seen that kind of number. That would mean 150 fish per day at the scale. That is just a silly joke. 3000 men? Where do we find the parking with the pitiful parking space at the Scale? :D ;D
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Good news as the chinook run in the Fraser at this time seems to be doing OK, as a friend watched one drift this morning here in Chilliwack, he counted 7 chinooks with one close to 30 pounds. ;D
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Chinook test fishery is not too shabby either, note 25 chinook on July 2.
Jun 22 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0
Jun 22 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 1
Jun 23 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 0
Jun 23 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 7 0 0
Jun 24 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 12 0 0
Jun 24 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 10 0 0
Jun 25 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0
Jun 25 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0
Jun 26 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 9 0 0
Jun 26 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 1
Jun 27 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0
Jun 27 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 8 0 0
Jun 28 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 17 0 0
Jun 28 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 13 0 0
Jun 29 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0
Jun 29 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0
Jun 30 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 10 0 0
Jun 30 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 10 0 0
Jul 01 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 1
Jul 01 2010 1 2 Albion 1 0 0 0 0 6 0 0
Jul 02 2010 1 1 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 25 0 0 Jul 02 2010 1 2 Albion 0 0 0 0 0 5 0 0
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2010 Vessel 1 Totals 1 0 0 0 0 251 0 8
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2010 Totals 1 0 0 0 0 251 0 8
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Totals for selected date range (Jun 3 2010 to Jul 3 2010): 1 0 0 0 0 251 0 8
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Totals up from last 5 years.
2005 218, 2006 251, 207 53 but they did not start until June 18, 2008 125, 209 264 and this year 304.
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The DFO is protecting the early sockeye runs.
All the flossers catch and release sockeye and the adams, stewart and the other early sockeye rivers runs get hammered by the betty flossers going after chinook.
the 'nook runs are fine.
that is the justification for closure of the entire river for salmon.
the red chinook will still be there
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The DFO is protecting the early sockeye runs.
All the flossers catch and release sockeye and the adams, stewart and the other early sockeye rivers runs get hammered by the betty flossers going after chinook.
the 'nook runs are fine.
that is the justification for closure of the entire river for salmon.
the red chinook will still be there
Not to get in the flossing debate as we have covered it well over many seasons but you are correct, I know from my sources the BB take a lot of chinook, especially more than when we just barfished and fished the creek mouths. The turbid waters have a big effect on bar fishers as it limits success. Of course the incidental catch of low returns of sockeye also causes some concern as well to FOC.
No easy answer on this but fishing methods will determine fishing opportunities on the Fraser River in the future, we have seen that the last while.
If people would just curtail BB until and if they open sockeye things would be for the better but I unfortunately I do not see that happening. I guess the good part is more fish will get to the spawning grounds as we sit on the bank for a longer period of time that we did at one time. Personally I do not like doing this more than the rest of this forum but conservation of all fish stocks should be important to all of us or should be.
Darn I have hijacked this thread after all, maybe Rod should lock it now. :o ???
Maybe I will be banned from the forum. :-\
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I re-post this article below that I wrote to the Vancouver Sun but they did not run it but the Chilliwack Progress did. This is why are fish stocks in most cases are in trouble in my view. As Rafe Mair said in his recent book. He says "What seems like relatively minor abuses of our environment by government and others in time these relatively minor abuses add up in time to a catastrophe" He also writes our oceans did not become close to fishless because of minor environmental sins but by the accumulations of many. I cover some of them them in my letter such as fish farms, loss of habitat, gravel mining, IPP's, overfishing by all sectors, loss of funding by government fisheries ministries, that causes improper stock assessment on smolt migration and returning adults to their natal streams etc..
Re article by Scott Simpson, 'Poor ocean survival blamed for returns', Vancouver Sun, August 15,
In the article by Scott Simpson "Poor ocean survival blamed for returns', it is true that Mother Nature has had a hand in the poor return of Sockeye salmon to the Fraser River and their natal streams to date in 2009. I, however believe Nature is not the only cause. I now believe all fishing sectors, Commercial, First Nations and Recreational anglers have had effect as well as the Federal and Provincial Governments which have not helped matters now and in the past.
Commercial fishing at one time had many many openings in the Fraser River from the Fraser River Estuary right up to Mission. Were too many of the previous generations of Sockeye allowed to be harvested then, to sustain the runs?
Some First Nations fishers fish illegally during closed times with set and drifts nets often under darkness and some people think there has not been proper enumeration of fish taken then and during their sanctioned openings. Fish are often sold outside economic opportunities during food, social and ceremonial only fisheries.
Recreational anglers last week were asked by FOC to fish selectively and were asked not to Bottom Bounce (flossing) where the interception of sockeye happens regularly. Many anglers complied, but others, as of Saturday, night did not. This caused the river from the Agassiz Rosedale Bridge to the Hope Bridge to be closed by FOC to salmon fishing for the recreational sector as of midnight Sunday night, August16.
The Provincial and Federal Government do not get passing marks in my books either. Both governments allow Atlantic fish farms to continue and still issue licenses for more to be built, even after Alexandra Morton has provided evidence time after time of the damage sea lice are doing to sockeye and other salmon species. It appears both the Provincial and Federal government allow monetary and international concerns to come before the well being of out wild stocks
For the last few years both levels of government have allowed gravel mining to go on in the Fraser River main stem around Chilliwack that affect salmon rearing and habitat areas. The Provincial Government sells this to the public in the guise of flood protection while many know it is about the revenue to be gained by gravel companies to be used for British Columbia Gateway projects and other construction projects that need the gravel for fill, concrete and asphalt.
For example in 2006 a well publicized news story saw millions of pink alveins killed due to a causeway being built across a Fraser River side channel. This caused the channel to de-water suffocating the millions of alveins still in their redds giving them no chance to emerge and migrate to the ocean to begin their 2 year life cycle. Where was the Provincial Environmental Minister asking for an investigation into this devastation? There was no investigation that I know of, nor were charges ever laid.
Financial cut backs to Fisheries and Oceans Canada budgets over the last years has, according to some, seen the lack of proper assessments of out going smolts and fry. Also, the monetary and staff cut backs have negatively affected the counting of the returning salmon to their natal streams.
I feel it is time to stop blaming just nature, but all user groups need to look at themselves to see what they can do to reverse this trend of decreasing sockeye salmon and other species of salmon. After all, we owe it not only to our future generations, so they too can witness each year the marvelous return of our precious salmon--a renewable resource--to our rivers, but most importantly, we owe it to our fish to do so. They, the salmon are counting on us, and if they could talk they would say "get on with it"
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July 2 and 3 both with about 30 fish, and July 4 had 45 fish. Yeup! the run is in trouble. Believe it. ;)
The last few years, I have rarely seen a sockeye accidentally caught by the bouncers before July 15 in Scale and other bars I fished. And even if caught and released, the sockeye survival test showed 2% mortality rate. So in the big pictures of the total sockeye run, what impact can this do to sockeye in early season compared to the mighty drift nets? Well, obviously DFO felt the pressure from the bar fishing sector to shut the bouncers down, so they probably conveniently shut all sporties down now regardless of method. If this is the real reason for the delayed opening, then too bad. But the numbers are strong and delaying the opening for chinook is not justified based on the stats. Like I said before, why even bother killing over 100 chinooks over the last 3 days in the test nets if DFO already made up its mind about July 15 opening? That is not conservation. Stop those nets from killing more fish now...
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Liketofish
That 2% survival rate that you keep quoting doesn't mean much. It does not translate into only a 2% loss on the spawning grounds. Once handled and released into some of the warm water conditions that we have experienced over the last number of years is deadly. Try holding the same fish for 10 -14 days and see what survival rates you get. I'll bet you would be shocked.
That being said, it is frustrating watching all the drift netting and set nets that are being used and we as sport anglers have to stand by and watch.
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They should have opened chinooks middle of june untill middle of july then closed it to protect the early sockeye run.if the summer run sockeye is good they could open
it for springs and sockeye.Regarding water temp in the past years has been warm in aug. but we are told that enough fish made it to the spawning grounds.
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Liketofish
That 2% survival rate that you keep quoting doesn't mean much. It does not translate into only a 2% loss on the spawning grounds. Once handled and released into some of the warm water conditions that we have experienced over the last number of years is deadly. Try holding the same fish for 10 -14 days and see what survival rates you get. I'll bet you would be shocked.
Couldn't agree more. These catch and release studies undertaken by the snagger apologist groups are seriously flawed. Factor in the sand shimmy and the attempted field goal kick that we regularly see at most snagging sights and you'll see your survival rate plummet.
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The sockeye mortality study on the Fraser River is a multiyear and evolving program. Baseline data has been obtained and as most agree, much more information is needed. To address this, I understand this summer sockeye will be radiotagged and followed throughout the watershed.
Totally agree with Buck – give these snagged/stressed fish 10 days in 18-20° C water and a trip through Hell’s Gate. Then check mortality rates. Shocking is right.
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The sockeye mortality study on the Fraser River is a multiyear and evolving program. Baseline data has been obtained and as most agree, much more information is needed.
Unfortunately, bad science is worse than no science.
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I think "bottom bouncing" study is a joke! The fish are held in a pen for 24 hours I believe and the checked for dead ones. For this study to have any credibility shouldn't these fish be radio tagged and released immediately. Then set up radio monitoring stations on their natal rivers and see what the survival rate really is. My .02
At least there is a study ;D
Unlike any other fishing method, have you seen studies done on them? ;)
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If a sockeye pulling a little betty will not make it through Hell's Gate (how do you know, may I ask?), then imagine it pulling a lb of lead slab by the other fishing group. You bet every one of them is a dead meat before they even make the canyon area. ;D Their claimed lesser number of incidental catch will surely make up with the much higher mortality rate. ;) I applaud DFO that, if there is a closure for us sporties, both groups should be off the river when it comes to protecting sockeye run.
Gentlemen, this is not a flossing debate. Please keep to the subject of why DFO is justfied when they use test fishery for opening & closure in the past and yet they close/delay the fishery in face of much better test number and other areas reporting a good return year. Please make your argument based on more facts than exageration or bias about fishing method. We may not change the outcome this time, but at least we can voice our concern that DFO may be functioning on fear of public opinion in ordering closure than their test fisheries. If so, why even bother with the test nets? Save those hundreds' or even thousands of fish killed in the test nets.
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liketofish, the catch data you trot out from the chinook Albion test fishery is as mentioned earlier next to useless when it comes to determining numbers of successful spawners. And that's the bottom line as these stocks, like most Fraser sockeye, are bottoming out.
Do some research on this…. Start with Nicola – Coldwater stocks, then check out North Thompson tribs, then Chilcotin/Quesnel/Nechako/Blackwater tribs. After that try the upper Fraser River tribs like the McGregor, Willow and Bowron. Dismal counts.
Some systems down to less than 20 spawners.
However, the value of the test fishery at Albion is considerable as it supplies a measure of long term trends in stock origin and perhaps more importantly, run timing. Albion is the most downstream data point available between the estuary and natal stream. Back when I was involved in this stuff, all chinook at Albion were sampled for length and weight, scales, otoliths, DNA, tags, visible hatchery marks, parasite load, etc to determine their stream of origin. Over years this data provides a pretty good snapshot of in- river stocks and where they are heading. Spawning ground data is correlated with all this.
Add to this, steelhead catches in September/October determine whether or not the Thompson will open to angling. Pretty important stuff to many people.
For sure it would be great to have a better means of determining actual chinook/steelhead numbers entering the lower Fraser but the reality is Albion is all that is available. Perhaps in the future FN fisheries could supply much of this data but for now that is not funded.
18° C is when sockeye, and to a lesser degree chinook, start to show signs of decreased mobility and increased sub lethal stress indicators. Sadly, the timing of this July 16 opening coincides with Fraser River temperatures predicted to reach 18.5° C. This combined with an app. 25% decrease in historic average flow means even faster temperature rises if the summer proves to hot.
Scary times to be a Fraser River salmon but perhaps a great time to be an ethical angler.
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......... but perhaps a great time to be an ethical angler.
You had a great post until you made that comment..... it was unnecessary and inflammatory. ???
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I agree. It is not necessary to bash others as unethical fishermen if they don't agree with you. Like I said before, most seasoned fishermen are concerned with fish stocks, regardless of their style of fishing. It is only a matter of trusting the government or not. By the way, who trust the government nowadays. ;D ;D
My question is, if DFO could open the Chinook fishery on June 1st in years past with much lower test fishery count (you don't mean they counted much more fish in spawning streams at comparable time in those low count years, do you?), why they delay opening this year when the test number is much higher and other areas down south are reporting historic catches, and this happens exactly right after the sockeye crash? Doesn't it smell fishy on DFO's motive to close/delay the fishery? Science or PR? And where are all those higher-count fish this year heading? If not the spawning streams, it will be in some illegal or legal nets. If the counts are so pitiful, why open drift nets? If conservation is a higher mandate than native fishery, why cave in to open more massive killings of these endangered stock? Agrue all you want. These are unsettling questions regarding DFO's management. One thing for sure, if any one wants to be DFO's poster boy, be my guest. :D
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My guess is it is both conservation and politics. The argument from the natives over the years has been "why do they need to pull out their nets while the sporties are still allowed to fish? They have not only asked the question but have challenged it in court as well. By closing the river to the sporties that argument is taken away from the natives.
That being said I would bet that the vast majority of the sports fishermen out there are not aware that the natives are still netting nor are they aware of the test set numbers. As a result it is an easy decision for DFO to disallow sporties any fishing opportunity on the Fraser at this time.
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True it is an argument.That is however just what it is.If there is a conservation concern it trumps all rights.That was settled in court.if priority is being given to one group over another then that is just an unfair curtailing of one groups freedom for cynical political reasons.The Natives lost the court case to keep us off the river now it is being done despite that ruling.The river is a shared resource and if there is no legitimate reason for dis-enfranchising one group to cater to another, it needs to stop!
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True it is an argument.That is however just what it is.If there is a conservation concern it trumps all rights.That was settled in court.if priority is being given to one group over another then that is just an unfair curtailing of one groups freedom for cynical political reasons.The Natives lost the court case to keep us off the river now it is being done despite that ruling.The river is a shared resource and if there is no legitimate reason for dis-enfranchising one group to cater to another, it needs to stop!
Like I said before, be happy you even get to fish this year.
Like Dave said, some runs are down to 20 or so fish. Yes the natives are taking a lot of fish but from DFO's views, allowing thousands of more anglers on the river will have that much further of an impact. Besides, we all know that (most likely) more than 50% of the fisherman out there are going to be flossing. The early Stuart run of sockeye is in fairly bad shape. In DFO's eyes, opening the river will probably mean a lot more by-catch and harassment of these early runs. Add in the fact of how many of these fish are treated on release and they may as well have been in a net.
Complain all you want about how natives get their traditional netting rights. DFO ALWAYS opens it up to them first, and then allows a sport fishery after if there are enough numbers of fish, it has always been that way and we are just realizing it now because there are less fish to go around and we want more of them. May not seem fair in anyones eyes but fishing isn't a right, it's a privilege. What makes the Fraser so special to you? Why don't you just go fish some of the other rivers that are open for chinook retention?
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It is not the point whether I fish or not. I don't raise this thread so I can go fishing if I win. Are we really that silly to think that things we discuss here will change DFO. Be real? I am too busy watching World Cup anyway. Who need to fish under these hot days when one can be watching the beautiful game in air-cond? ;D
The point is that DFO is not justified to shut down the sporties only, if the spawning counts are too low. It is their mandate to conserve stock. If the low spawning counts are used to shut fisheries down, and if we are down to few fish as Dave said it, then why the heck open the nets and let the nets kill the few fish left? But if they use the test fishery instead to decide opening of closing, on what justification is the closure or delay opening is based on? If not, then it is based on PR and based on protecting some job security. It can set a bad pattern in the future when DFO can summarily close fisheries to the sporties with or without justifications.
If you are happy with DFO, be my guest. I am not. Let's just respectfully disagree. Where one chooses to fish is highly personal thing. If you like to catch trout, and if DFO said they close out all lakes except those stocked ponds in the city, will you want to settle with that? And if this happen after you already buy license to catch trouts in merrit lakes, aren't you pissed about it? Likewise, if I like to fight the beasts of the Fraser springs with their exciting runs, I am not sure I want to fish those in the smaller systems, as much as you don't enjoy the stock ponds.
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I am not happy with DFO at all. I would love to see a lot of things changed about how they run our fisheries, etc starting with making fish farms land based. We will never get what we want, but complaining about a closure to actually do their job and protect stocks doesn't do anyone any good.
I don't think you are quite listening to what I am saying. The FN have ALWAYS and will ALWAYS get first dibs at the fish. This means if there is 20 000 fish over the escapement target the FN will get those fish and no one else. DFO only open the river up to sporties if there are enough fish after the FN allotted slots.
Dave also mentioned the valuable information achieved by using the Albion test nets. It is the lowest part in the river below all the tribs. They can find out how old every fish is, where they are heading, what run timings are for that particular river, build trends, etc by using the fish caught in the net. It is not only about having numbers to justify whether or not to open the system. I can tell you undeniably that these numbers in the Albion do nothing to show the numbers of the run, if you had access to some fish counting stations on the Fraser you would know this.
You can get just as good of a fight out of a spring in other river systems as you do in the Fraser. Fighting without that extra 16 oz of weight also lets them be more acrobatic and such. I personally will go wherever I can to have a chance at a fish and will use gear that will provide the same fight as if I was using a bar rod with a massive weight in the Fraser. Downsize the gear and you would be surprised how much different fish fight.
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if the interior tribs are in such dispare why do they allow the natives to fish them if there is only 20 ? I have seen netting/snagging and gaffing on some small tribs in the interior that have very few chinook.
perhaps the lower closures are not the biggest part of the problem.
its easy to sit here behind the computer screen, but sad to say 95% of you complaining dont and will not ever do anything positive about it.
I read it on the net or heard it from "my buddy" that works for DFO, is just pain hogwash. :P
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This is exactly what I am saying. Why let the natives fish when you are down to 20 spawners. If the low count on the trib is used for closure, then how on earth they know that there will be more coming to cover for the FN share? Isn't it too much a gamble on the stock? Isn't that what happened to the sockeyes? We would love to have the sockeyes FN caught last year swimming in the spawning streams rather than on some body's plates. You are missing the point EveryDay. FN should not fish if there is a conservation concern. They are not always entitled to fish if the numbers are not there. So according to Dave & you, should DFO open the nets when the tribs are down to survival line?
But if the test fishery is used to judge opening and closing, then the return number is higher than any of the last few years. July 10 had 50 fish. That is after July 4 had 45 and some 30 fish days before that. Since you don't fish the Fraser for springs, I will excuse you for your ignorance about that number. For those of us who fish the river and had used that number to help us plan the trip, that is a huge number for a day's test catch. The river literally had waves and waves of springs when those test numbers reported.
Contrary to what my postings may be perceived, I am not even too keen on fishing the Fraser when it opens. Why, just don't want to unnecessarily harrrassed most of the fish which probably are bigger than the minimum size of 77 cm. Springs fight a lot harder than sockeyes, and a tired out big mama will probably not make it to spawning ground. Why put the fish through all that if not intending to keep. I am not a c/r guy and I see no justification to put a fish through all that just for my pleasure. So I am going to wait. ;)
But with all the big test number, is it still a bad year for Fraser springs? Believe it. I don't. By the way, I am not a bar-fisher. Let the lead-bomb group answer why using the lead bombs ;D ;D
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I'm not ignorant of how many fish are coming through the river... in fact I know the estimates of how many have. Yes there are a lot coming through, and it has been taking a while to count them all :P
I will just leave this discussion as is. I personally don't disagree with DFO's decision to shut down the river. Yes there are nets (which I do disagree with, but have come to the realization that there is nothing we can do about that) but every fish counts. I am happy fishing other areas for rainbows and cutties, or the occasional summer steely or red spring to worry about the Fraser.
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We all disagree with the nets but we all say they same thing... there's nothing we can do ??? There's gotta be some way to stop it i'm not sure what but there's gotta be a way. There's so many people against it and we all know it bad.
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--there are perhaps better methods of selective harvest such as the use of weirs, pens or artificial channels which allow for better managed escapement of none target species. These methods may even provide better counts for management purposes.
--Maybe some would accept a more ceremonial traditional fishery with main for food fishery supplemented by...land based closed penned or trade of fish and quota from other geographic areas.
--Some Interior First Nation Bands will fish lakes and rivers with very few fish taken in order to assert their traditional territories and rights to fish. These values and rights need to be preserved.
--Peoples attitudes change, concensus negotiation is possible.
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--Maybe some would accept a more ceremonial traditional fishery with main for food fishery supplemented by...land based closed penned or trade of fish and quota from other geographic areas.
--Some Interior First Nation Bands will fish lakes and rivers with very few fish taken in order to assert their traditional territories and rights to fish. These values and rights need to be preserved.
--Peoples attitudes change, concensus negotiation is possible.
Wow you need to get out more..... While there may be some of the traditional stuff going on in some of the remote areas in the province, around the lower mainland it is all about economic opportunity. At the risk of generalizing, most of the fish caught by natives on the lower Fraser hit the market. When money is involved greed is involved. Where greed is involved the individuals don't give a d@mm about conservation, selective harvest or sustainability. After conservation excapements are met the natives know they are next in line and the more they take the less are left for any other user groups! Why should they care??
The only way to manage the situation is with strict laws and strict enforcement. The government hasn't got the will to do that, because in the background they are trying to settle the land claims. Every time DFO tries to enforce the rules they get taken to court by the natives. Another thing to thank Trudeau for, with his rights and freedoms amendment!
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im not from around here, but from what ive seen i think there would be more fish if no one could net them in the river not even the natives
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Definitly would need strict enforcement were talking no excuses.. In africa the penalty for shooting an animal out of season is death!
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Does somebody know how many of 528 Chinooks from test fishery are actually under 77cm?
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Yea, it would be nice to have the size info. If most of the fish is larger than 77cm, why bother even open the fishery to the sporties for c/r. Just stay home and find something else to do than harrassing the big spawners risking them not making it to home streams. One more point though. If DFO are having a size restriction to protect the bigger spawners, they should also limit the size of their nets to not kill the bigger fish. Isn't it logical? But you bet they won't bother. Restriciton is only on us poor sporties. Where do those fish killed in test nets go though? Natives? Markets? Employee benefits/parties? Hope not the last one. ;)
On the point of letting the nets in the Fraser, it is a pity that DFO has not learned from the lesson of the sockeyes. Sockeye stocks, even much more numerous than springs, cannot survive the nets in the Fraser. So how will springs stand the massive killing of the nets? If the natives cannot take sockeyes, and they turn their effort to harvesting springs with their mighty drift nets, all the science of managing springs can be out of the window. A few more days of opening can wipe out the run of a rive or trib. These nets scoop up every fish as they drift down, except the tiny ones. Too bad for the fish. They can't stand a chance against modern killing machines. :( >:(
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Yea, it would be nice to have the size info. If most of the fish is larger than 77cm, why bother even open the fishery to the sporties for c/r. Just stay home and find something else to do than harrassing the big spawners risking them not making it to home streams. One more point though. If DFO are having a size restriction to protect the bigger spawners, they should also limit the size of their nets to not kill the bigger fish. Isn't it logical? But you bet they won't bother. Restriciton is only on us poor sporties. Where do those fish killed in test nets go though? Natives? Markets? Employee benefits/parties? Hope not the last one. ;)
On the point of letting the nets in the Fraser, it is a pity that DFO has not learned from the lesson of the sockeyes. Sockeye stocks, even much more numerous than springs, cannot survive the nets in the Fraser. So how will springs stand the massive killing of the nets? If the natives cannot take sockeyes, and they turn their effort to harvesting springs with their mighty drift nets, all the science of managing springs can be out of the window. A few more days of opening can wipe out the run of a rive or trib. These nets scoop up every fish as they drift down, except the tiny ones. Too bad for the fish. They can't stand a chance against modern killing machines. :( >:(
I was gonna be done with this but....
First of all limiting the size of the nets will only catch MORE fish. They can't make the mesh bigger to avoid getting bigger fish cause then you won't get any, only smaller and will start getting sockeye and other by-catch rater than springs. So 528 Springs or a whole lotta sockeye in the nets as well.
Secondly, before you go blaming natives for the collapse of sockeye stocks you should really know what you are talking about. It may have something to do with the netting, but more frequent high water periods to wipe out reds on smaller rivers, warmer temps heating rivers to lethal temps, poor ocean survival conditions (having to do with feed in the ocean occurring earlier and faster due to higher temps earlier on in the year), netting in the ocean, sea lice, etc. These ALL have a huge impact on the stocks, and you can't go blaming just one group when I bet you were taking your 2 a day every year it was open, and that doesn't take long to build up when there are literally thousands of people on every bar from Chilliwack to Hope.
I also need to comment on the "mighty drift nets." I work with natives and have been inquiring about things like openings, different netting strategies and how many they get per net. The drift net is not at all as effective as you may think, and that is why DFO has that type of netting open right now (on Saturdays for 12 hr openings). The lady I work with goes out with her husband for a 12 hr opening and says an EXCEPTIONAL day is 50 fish. She said an average is more like 10, and on recent trips they have only been getting as few as 3. SET NETS on the other hand are the ones that do the damage, she said you can easily get 200 fish in 6 or so hours in one of those and they need to check the nets 2 -3 times a day because they get so jammed with fish.
I guess I'll stay out of this again until another uneducated, biased remark.
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DFO does restrict the net mesh size and by making the net mesh size smaller the large fish will bounce off the nets rather than getting caught in them. A large spring is not going to get caught in the same net that a sockeye or small spring is getting caught in. I also suspect that the natives are not targeting large springs. Firstly they don't like catching large springs because they make a tangled mess in their nets and secondly there are sockeye in the river and they are much more marketable for those that choose to do so......
I agree with the drift net comments, set nets are more effective as the fish generally hug the shore in the slower water as they swim upstream.
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EveryDay , You keep basing your opinion on the thought that the only time the nets are in are on scheduled openings.. when in fact thats not the case. How often are you on the fraser?? I'm assuming you are not out there too much but I may be wrong.I spend between 150 and 200 days on the water and in the summer time it is not unusual to see some sort of netting going on everyday. I agree that set nets are much worse.. so take a drive up to yale and take a look at what is going on in the canyon there. The fact is that DFO ether chooses to ignore it or dosen't have the funding to properly enforce it. We all know that natives are not the only ones to blame i just feel that the nets are something we can deal with right now. As far as the thousands of sporties taking there limit everyday it's actually a small percentage of people consistantly taking there limit.
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Everyday, you are right to say I could take 2 sockeyes everyday I went out. Ya, right. That was years ago before the natives were netting like crazy. With their nets in, there were days when I took 10+ hours to get my limit and days with none. Many fellow fishermen report the same. Even a lot of the sockeyes caught were smallish with net marks. That tells the picture of the total annihilation by the drift nets. Only small fish got through. You guys are right about dirft nets not that 'mighty', but only in the lower river where it is much deeper than areas above Mission. From that point on, the river is fast and shallow. The nets took lots of fish in those areas where it is narrow, fast, and shallow. It is morally wrong that natives can operate drift nets in those areas, for the nets vacuum suck everything on their path. That has been my experience. If you fish within 1 or 2 days from the drift nets opening, you are like fishing dead water, not a thing.
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Chrome bar...
I drive over the fraser, along side it and work on it 5 days out of the week. I happen to work up in Yale as well.
So far I haven't seen any nets in there, but then again I guess I may not see as much of the river as you.
I also happen to know how many fish are going through... and if there are is many nets in the river as you say, they sure aren't doing a good job.
alwaysfishn...
Like I said making the mesh smaller will not do anything good for the sockeye runs which is what they are concerned with right now.
Why would DFO make the mesh size smaller at Albion to catch the sockeye they are trying to protect (Early Stuarts), rather than catch a minimal amount or larger fish?
I guess that sure, there may be the few that target the sockeye and kill them illegally, but once again you are clustering all the natives into the nutshell that they all poach fish, when this isn't the case. There are those that follow the rules and those that poach, just like on the rivers with rod and reel, not everyone openly breaks the law.
liketofish...
Once again, the lady I work with drifts up in Yale and it is no where as effective as set nets.
Fish will come up along the sides up there and through the whole river because they want the easiest path, drifting along the sides can be dangerous and a hassle with all the debris stuck along the sides, so they have to stay out away from the edges therefore making the drift nets less effective. Set nets are put right in the direct route of a fish' path. I just believe you are mixing up set nets and drift nets, because there is no way drift nets are going to be wiping the whole river clean of fish.
Just for the record I use to fish the Fraser a lot. I totally know about the void of fish after the openings of nets (which are set nets, not drift nets). Yes only the small fish get through and yes the set nets do a number on the stocks. I use to be, and still am totally against the natives netting. I wanted more info on it and went right to the direct source rather than making my own opinions without any knowledge about the topic. From what I can see as long as DFO keeps set nets closed the stocks will be way better off.
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alwaysfishn...
Like I said making the mesh smaller will not do anything good for the sockeye runs which is what they are concerned with right now.
Why would DFO make the mesh size smaller at Albion to catch the sockeye they are trying to protect (Early Stuarts), rather than catch a minimal amount or larger fish?
I wasn't talking about DFO's test sets, I was talking about the native's nets. Here is some info on the nets used at Albion:
The Albion Chinook test fishery has operated since 1981 on the lower Fraser River at Albion (near Fort Langley). The test fishery is conducted with a drifted gill net at a specific site near the old Albion ferry crossing. The fishery begins in early April of each year, and fishes until mid-October. On each day of operation, the boat fishes two sets, timed to coincide with the daily high tide.
The Chinook test fishery normally fishes every day from April 1st through August 31st. During this period, the test boat uses two different nets which fish on alternating days: the "standard" Chinook net, which is constructed using eight-inch mesh; and a "multi-panel" net, which consists of panels of six, seven, eight, and nine inch mesh. The purpose of the multi-panel net is to ensure representative sampling of Chinook passing through the lower Fraser River, due to the wide range of body sizes observed in Fraser River Chinook stocks. Use of the multi-panel net began in 1997 - prior to that, the test fishery operated with the eight-inch mesh net only.
From September 1st through October 20th, the Albion Chinook test fishery fishes every other day, alternating days with the chum test fishery (which fishes a 6.75 inch mesh gill net). Throughout this period, the Chinook test fishery uses the eight-inch mesh net exclusively.
Both gill nets used in the Albion Chinook test fishery are 200 fathoms long.
Since its inception in 1981, the Albion test fishery has been conducted by the fishing vessel "Witch Doctor".
I guess that sure, there may be the few that target the sockeye and kill them illegally, but once again you are clustering all the natives into the nutshell that they all poach fish, when this isn't the case. There are those that follow the rules and those that poach, just like on the rivers with rod and reel, not everyone openly breaks the law.
Re-read my post and show me where I said that all natives poach fish. Your comparison of natives that poach using nets and fishermen that poach using rod and reel is like comparing a watermelon to a sunflower seed. Even though both acts are illegal the damage a native poacher with a net causes is 100's of time greater than the rod and reel poacher!
That's why the focus on native poachers!!
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You are right on, Alwaysfishn. To compare the two on stock damage is just unrelistic. Chris once reported counting 700 nets from the river mouth to up the Fraser canyon. Even if those nets are legal, how many fish can zig zag 700 times to avoid them? LOL. If a small % of them also poach, then the damage is way more than a few guys with one rod and one reel (even though there is no excuse for these rod & reel poachers). Nets are what DFO need to be concerned for stock convervation.