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Author Topic: Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.  (Read 21623 times)

Trout Slayer

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Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« on: June 23, 2004, 10:11:38 PM »

I have thought about this for a while and would like some input from some of the members. I currently have 20lbs Maxima mono on my reel and would like to switch over to a fire line/braided/no stretch etc. ;D Looking for the best and opinions if it is worth it. Heard about some eating away at the guides. Any that wouldn't? Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 10:18:33 PM by tHe TrOuT sLaYeR »
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FishKid

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2004, 10:16:19 PM »

Trou slayer, sorry for what happened earlier.  If I were you I would just stick to the monofilament because I've used fireline before and once it gets tangled it's impossible to untangle it.  I've also heard from a few guys that fire line chews right through ceramic guides so it would be better if you had steel guides.
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Trout Slayer

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2004, 10:20:23 PM »

Trou slayer, sorry for what happened earlier.  If I were you I would just stick to the monofilament because I've used fireline before and once it gets tangled it's impossible to untangle it.  I've also heard from a few guys that fire line chews right through ceramic guides so it would be better if you had steel guides.
Ya, the mono is pretty good I guess but the stretch it creates is pretty bad; with it snapping more easy, would like to save some more gear.
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DragonSpeed

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2004, 10:33:17 PM »

I use fireline for my main.  never had it cut at my guides.  Never have I cut someones mono when they've crossed me/I've crossed them.  I've generally found fireline EASIER to untangle than mono.

my $0.02

Hiker

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2004, 10:35:20 PM »

I am using fireline for almost two years now, and I am happy with it. Though it is very strong line and if it does get tangled on bottom you will have difficult time to break it (much more difficult than for the same rating mono).
You will have to pay attention to your guides though, specially the top one. My fireline just cut through it when I was fishing this winter (I guess combination of cold weather and strong line). I noticed it right away as part of gide was left and cut my line like butter. As that usually never hapens I checked guides and found the top one broken. It cost me I think $2 to fix it, but I didn't leave fishing. Just used my pliers to smooth metal surface of guide not to damage my line and kept fishing.
It is not easy to unknot it, if you get bird nest, but just be patient and do not pull too strong on the line and take your time. Beauty of it is that no knot will damage it, and you can keep using the same line. Just watch your hands when pulling as braided can easily cut through your skin.
Finally, I wouldn't go back to mono, if for nothing else than for the fact there is no memory to that line, and I do not feel so bad about wasting line and contributing to overall pollution :)
Hope it helps.
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otto

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2004, 10:47:39 PM »

and so the great debate about braids VS mono continues  ;D ;D

my 2 cents on braids:
- love the complete lack of stretch, the fact that you can fish with a line that is 100 LB test but is only 8lbs test in diameter (the current stuff i have), has excellent sensitivity, can detect the water bottom, rocks etc, fish bites with ease, can saw through lily pad roots like a buzzsaw, no loss of fish due to line snapping, nicks etc, the line floats, making line pickup so much faster than waterlogged mono, instant, positive hookset with just a flick of the wrist, like the fact that you can fish with braids in the sun without line damage from UV rays over time, like the fact that you can take a flyline cleaner like Scientific Angler and wipe the line down, making it super fast shooting through the spinning reel guides.

cons:   braided lines will severely slice you skin open, or sever limbs (big tuna fishing) if you are careless and don't watch the line when a fish (even a little coho) runs with the line, birdsnests on the baitcaster reel require line cutting to fix. can be expensive for the better qaulity braids (FIRELINE is not a true braid, rather it is heat fused chopped Dyneema fibers), i'm talking about the Spectra braids that are tightly woven.

am currently experimenting with a thick braided line.....am tightly braiding three equal lengths together to make a lightweight flyline similar to the old braided silk lines.

have several reels spooled with braid of various LB's and diameters. i use a braided line on my coarse fishing pole, with a flouracarbon leader.


have never had a problem with the braids cutting the line guides. cheap guids (plastic) or some aluminum guides may get cuts, but this is often due to grit on the braid that acts like an abrasive, not the line itself.
my 2 cents
« Last Edit: June 23, 2004, 10:52:35 PM by otto »
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Fish Assassin

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2004, 10:53:59 PM »

I have used Berkley Fireline for several years now and the following are my observations:

Advantages:
  - no stretch resulting in easier hooksets
  - small diameter. My 14 lb. Fireline has the diameter of 6 lb. test
  - floats. You can mend your line if you are floatfishing
  - sensitivity.

Disadvantages:
  - very expensive. Over $50.00 for 300 yards of 14 lb. test.
  - Virtually impossible to untangle if you have a knot
  - Tendency to dig into your line

Finally, from my experience the Fireline has never damaged any of my guides. Last year I've fished 125 times all using Fireline.

Hope you find the info useful.
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Sandy

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2004, 11:02:29 PM »

I have had no other problems with Braided/fireline other than the odd birds nest(which I also got with Mono).I am a bit more careful when seeting up the reel(levelwind)than before.I havn't noticed any attributable wear to the guides all in all a bit more confident (a must no matter what tackle you use)that should I hook the mother of all ::), I will not lose it due to line break.Remember to Vote,you can't bitch about the results if you didn't make the effort to mark the box  
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finding your limits is fun, it can also be VERY painful.

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Fishin Freak

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2004, 11:02:47 PM »

I think braided lines are a lot better than mono for most fishing situations. For some situations like fishing the Vedder I prefer mono for various reasons but if your going to BB in the Fraser river then a braided line is the way to go.

I've tried fireline and I personally hated it. It began to fall apart to easy and get frayed. It's not a line to use in the Fraser BB.  If your going to use it in the Vedder it's not all that bad of a line to use. I've now switched to tuff line and love it, backlashs are a breeze to get out and the line holds up a lot better than fireline and doesn't fray. I also found it casts a lot smoother and is easier to handle.
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Athezone

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2004, 11:03:37 PM »

Fireline works for me, been using it for a good dozen years and have never experienced any of my guides damaged. One advantage I like with Fieline is that in slow moving flows it sits straight and does'nt curl like mono and sink to much, so as it plays out, rod tip low, when the fish takes just lift your rod and fish for dinner.
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otto

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2004, 11:04:04 PM »

i agree with FA.  Fireline and other braids can dig into the layers of the spool. i had 500 yards of a Spectra/Kevlar/Dyneema mixed blend braid (80 lb test, 10 LB diameter) dig into the layers below on the spool and backlash, resulting in the 3 OZ halibut jig weight whipping around and shattering the boat windshield when i was halibut fishing last year with my buddies. you need to wipe the line down with a good line cleaner, as you spool it onto the reel (friends help here!!) it''s best to spool it tightly onto the spool. every once in a while, take off your hook and tie on a 2 OZ weight and cast out. on the retrieve, this will help respool about 150 yards of line quite tightly, resulting in less ":digging in"..

 8)
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JigHead

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2004, 11:07:32 PM »

fireline for what type of fishing? and what is your set up... if your fishing on a sandy bottom.... it will slice thru your aluminum oxide guides like butter.

for braided lines.. go with the best ;) Power pro ;D
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Sandy

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2004, 11:14:05 PM »

Hi Otto
couldn't agree more,even with the post scripts re: sentences,Why does the media not show the faces of the judges or even report on their  Batting averages(so to speak)embaress the B*g**rs into doing a reasonable job instead of turning the system into a social experiment
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finding your limits is fun, it can also be VERY painful.

If you care about Canada's future, get involved by holding your MLA's & MP's accountable!! don't just be sheep!!

otto

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2004, 11:16:25 PM »

here is a bunch of info on braided/fused/etc lines (sorry Rod, i hope this does'nt overwhelm the FWR server  ;D )

I think that I should explain the difference between "Dyneema" and "Spectra" here:

Both ‘Spectra’ and ‘Dyneema’ are HDPE (High Density Polyethylene) fibers. However, Dyneema (Manufactured in Europe and Asia by Toyobo/Dyneema, DMS), is recognized as being of a slightly ‘lower quality’ than the American version "Spectra". (The quality of Dyneema generally is very good). Also, the individual filaments that make up a Dyneema yarn are smaller than individual fibers in a spectra yarn; this translates to better abrasion resistance.
The older style Dyneema ‘braids’ (manufactured in Europe) have many inherent problems in their use. Often the advantages gained whilst using them were outweighed by their many drawbacks. These Dyneema braids include the ones currently being sold under various labels by the big UK carp fishing / specialist angling tackle suppliers.
You might be thinking that these braided lines are nothing new?? You are correct; many of these items have been on the market for nearly 10 years. Spiderwire, one of the original ‘Super lines’ had made its mark with many carp anglers (especially on the overseas circuits) in the early 1990’s.
The development of these new age ‘Super lines’ has obviously been a slow but steadily progressing area. Certain varieties have sprung up along the road to where we find ourselves now, from the excellent Spiderline (a type of ‘fusion braid’) to the newer Spectra/Dacron Hybrids.
The term ‘Fusion’ comes from where the line is heated in manufacture, enabling the fibers to become ‘fused’ together to some degree. This process removes many (but not all) of the problems found in the earlier varieties. But still, all was not resolved... Wind knots still caused problems if the caster was not ever vigilant to the amount of tension applied when slowing casts / retrieving these lines. Also common, was its tendency to fray. It seems these lines would start to get ‘furry’ after only a few sessions. This was a serious issue when you consider the cost of these lines. The ‘fusing’ aspect of these products seemed to solve the problem
of ring wear also, but those nasty habits for knotting and tangles were still always present. The worst aspects to these ‘fused’ lines were their poor abrasion resistance.
I believe that the word fusion is misused in these products. (Spider Wire Fusion and Fireline) If you pull apart the line, you will find that the fibers in the structure are not fused with the exception perhaps of some fibers at the surface. They are coated with a plastic "skin" that binds the fibers together. The reason they get "Furry" is that the plastic skin is rubbed off the line, then the un-integrated fibers are exposed to every little abrasion and deteriorate quickly.
Incidentally, Spider Wire Fusion and Spectra lines should not be confused as being the same thing. Spectra line is soft and extremely flexible, whereas Spider Wire is stiff and hard, because its fibers are ‘fused’ together by heat as explained above.
Spider Wire Fusion is made with Spectra Fibers, but the fused lines are not braided. Braided structures tend to have better abrasion resistance sine the fibers are held in place through the braiding process.
The majority of braids that are currently in the carp fishing 'market place' are sinking versions. Some include 'Kevlar' in their make up, around 10-20%, this material is included to make the braid sink in the water, to some degree.
Kevlar (Para-Aramid fiber) is denser than water having a specific gravity of 1.38-1.44, unlike Dyneema, which has a specific gravity of 0.96 (Water is of course 1). The only 'problem' with Kevlar, is its negative reaction when exposed to UV light. Exposure to sunlight, over a long period of time, will reduce its strength by up to 40%, thereby lowering the overall ‘life’ of the line. Kevlar also stretches under tension, at a slightly different rate to that of Dyneema. This may cause undue stress on the Dyneema filaments making up the other 80% of the line, potentially causing a line failure. A similar problem was encountered when adding Dacron to Spectra (see below). Not something you want to hear when paying £60 odd for 600 meters!! Also Kevlar is very abrasive, not only to guides but also to itself. In dynamic bending, it is difficult to predict when Aramids will fail.
Other 'sinking' lines contain 'Polyester', in the same percentage amounts i.e.. 10-20%. This material is also added to make the finished product sink in the water. However, its abrasion resistant qualities are negligible, and it is added to the lines make up to reduce overall cost of manufacture. The only advantageous factor being, it does make the line sink.
The braid lines being sold under the labels of the big UK carp firms are generally manufactured in Europe (Holland) although, as I mentioned before, the quality of material used, Dyneema, is slightly inferior to that of Spectra.
No sinking version is, currently, manufactured in the US. Because they apparently have no need for one as they are mainly predator fishermen using lures. This does not mean however that one will not be coming on the market in the future. I understand ‘talks’ are in progress; we will have to wait and see on that one. But it will not contain either Kevlar or Polyester as, in my opinion, these materials are used to reduce manufacturing costs, as they are considerably cheaper to buy than Dyneema, which will set you back a 'mere' £2000 per Kilo, trade!
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otto

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Re:Braided/No Stretch Lines etc.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2004, 11:17:02 PM »

continued.....
 

For the record, the reasons why I think the new ‘Super lines’ would be better to use than monofilament fishing lines are this.
* The line will last longer than mono, thereby proving better value for money in the long run.
* It is infinitely better at transmitting movement / Vibration. Thereby improving sensitivity and bite registration.
* It is far thinner. Allowing the angler to cast further, and load more line on their reels.
 Extensive analysis / field-testing of the new ‘Super lines’ both in the UK, USA and other parts of the world is proving very positive.
Although we are still only in the early stages of actually ‘testing’ it in the European carp fishing environment, early feedback from those dozen or so highly respected anglers who have received samples has been very encouraging, to say the least. You may well have seen reviews in the angling press, for ‘Super lines’ such as the excellent, ‘Power Pro’ version.
The new Spectra braided ‘Super lines’ are unlike the braids currently on the market. They are not manufactured in the same way, and therefore do not behave in the same way, nor do they exhibit the inherent 'problems' encountered when Dyneema and ‘Fusion’ braids.
Unlike the older style braided lines, fishing with the new braided ‘Super lines’ is as easy as fishing with monofilament. Listed below are some of the immediate advantages of the new ‘Super lines’. Please note that I have used Power Pro as a benchmark:
* Rounder and more compact than other braided lines.
* Spools and packs better on any kind of reel
* Does not bury in the spool like the older style braids
* Smoother surface texture
* Sails effortlessly through your rod rings for longer casts
* Gentle on interior ring surfaces
* Significantly reduces wind knots & rod tip wraps
* Compact structure picks up less water
* Improved knot performance
And, also, provides all this without compromising the properties that anglers, who have used it, now come to appreciate in other
‘Super lines’:
* Near Zero Stretch
* Unbelievable strength for the diameter
* No reel memory
* Improved abrasion resistance
So how much does all this cost?? As an indicator, 150 yards of Power Pro retails at £16.99. A general lack of knowledge about the new ‘Super lines’ advantages seem to be their biggest downfall at the present time.
This new product brings with it many advantages over the older versions of braided Spectra. The most noticeable difference is that the samples of ‘Power Pro’ we've tested / used shows no inclination to break down and fray. Most anglers report much better abrasion resistance compared to the older style lines, but when you see any line fray, this means that fibers are breaking down, indicating that it’s time to retie. I would urge you to practice common sense…
With respect to abrasion resistance, ‘Super lines’ appear as abrasion resistant to a braid of the same diameter, regardless of test rating. Point being, a braids diameter is the major factor to whether it is resistant to abrasion or not. Spectra is just very good quality Dyneema.
That is why ‘Super lines’ are stronger, as far as diameter of line goes, than their competitors.
What I'm trying to put across, is that most ‘Super lines’ are as abrasion resistant as its equivalent diameter in a 'normal' braid. But its test is greater for the same diameter, a trade off if you like. So 50lb test would be as abrasion resistant as 30 lb 'normal' braid. For instance Fox sinking, Fireline etc. are thicker than, and contain more material than, ‘Super line’ of the same test. So, therefore, will be more abrasion resistant pro rata. If diameters came into it, Quicksilver 45 lb for example would probably rate, equivalent in diameter, to 100 lb test ‘Super line’. Abrasion resistance is very difficult to characterize since there are different types of abrasive media in the water. Power Pro for example is great against the barnacles found on the pilings of drill rigs, against Zebra
Muscles, and many other structure, but really bad in Coral reefs where monofilaments do much better. As a general rule of thumb, it is safe to say that thicker lines will have better abrasion resistance. In the case of the fusion lines, you also have the issue of a nonintegrated fiber bundle (twisted then coated), vs. a braided structure where the fibers are tightly held in the structure. The only analogy that I’ve been told is if you think of a cotton ball vs. a woven cotton cloth – if you rub a cotton ball over a surface the fibers are easily snagged and pulled out - in a woven cloth, the fibers are held in place and will not come apart.
Finally, if the marketing information / results from the US are true, you could well expect your new ‘Super line’ to last you a season or more with constant use!!Remember, these lines are extremely thin which makes them very likely to cut into your fingers. Always use a finger guard or some form of decent protection on your casting finger and be extra careful if you are pulling free of snags by wrapping the line around your hand. Never wrap these Super lines around your hand. Wrap it around a stick, or the side plate of your reel before trying to remove a snag.
I think it is important to mention that I personally use a length of anti tangle tubing or lead core leader above the
lead to avoid any possibility of damage to the fishes ‘flank’, although I have not encountered problems I would
sooner be safe than sorry.
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