Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => Fishing-related Issues & News => Topic started by: nosey on December 17, 2014, 09:55:04 AM
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Re: Hunting in BC will be severely affected due to new allocations of big game!!
« Reply #1 on: Today at 09:52:47 AM »
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The BC government is essentially privatized a large proportion of BC's game with this move and their decision to allow foreign companies to own guiding interests in BC that they made earlier this year, all the fishermen on this site should pay attention to this, the privatization of our rivers may not be far behind. This government has proven with this move that they will put the interests of others well ahead of those of our citizens. For those of you that think it is unthinkable that our rivers in BC could ever be privatized this should be a wake up call.
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is their a link to further info or am i missing something?
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BCWF News release: http://www.bcwf.net/index.php/new-items-sp-25573/news-releases
BC Guide Outfitter news release: http://www.goabc.org/news/news_detail.aspx?Id=58
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Re: Hunting in BC will be severely affected due to new allocations of big game!!
« Reply #1 on: Today at 09:52:47 AM »
ReplyQuoteModifyModify
The BC government is essentially privatized a large proportion of BC's game with this move and their decision to allow foreign companies to own guiding interests in BC that they made earlier this year, all the fishermen on this site should pay attention to this, the privatization of our rivers may not be far behind. This government has proven with this move that they will put the interests of others well ahead of those of our citizens. For those of you that think it is unthinkable that our rivers in BC could ever be privatized this should be a wake up call.
I doubt river privatization would happen, due to the buffer created by over 75% (believe it is 77%) going to NGO's. 53% goes to FFSBC and the remaining 24% goes to HCTF. Now with only 23% of revenue going to the provincial government it would be tough for them to privatize fisheries, as the fishing license model would have to change.
Another thing is the presence of pac salmon in many watersheds. Currently they fall under fed jurisdiction. Privatization would create more headaches due to the need for consultation between the owners of privatized river portions.
And then there is also the public use. A fair amount of the population enjoys water for swimming, boating, tubing etc. Hunting tag allocation is easier to change as it affects a much smaller population base.
But I do agree, we need to speak up (I wrote a letter) as we are tied together through the interest in outdoor recreation.
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I dug this link up online, it gives the Fraser Institute's opinion on this, we all know that this "non profit think tank" seems to carry a lot of weight with our liberal government so I wouldn't count anything out. If they can sell our moose to foreign interests, what would be the price they put on our trout. http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/07/13/Frasermania/
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There are a number of rivers that non residents can't fish without a guide on certain days or not at all. Check the regulations for the Dean and several Skeena tribs. May just be the tip if the wedge. Why are guides being given special treatment?
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There are a number of rivers that non residents can't fish without a guide on certain days or not at all. Check the regulations for the Dean and several Skeena tribs. May just be the tip if the wedge. Why are guides being given special treatment?
How is that special treatment for a guide?
As a resident, I do not face a a lottery system that affects if I am able to fish or not.
The hunting allocations are simply the amount of tags available during the LEH season. Stop freaking out about river privatization, its not going to happen with the current licensing model or any derivative of it.
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I've had a BC hunting licence for 51 yrs, and a BC fishing licence for 49 yrs, I've seen lots of changes in BC that nobody could or would of predicted I don't think that our rivers will be privatized in the short term, but I didn't think any government would give away BC rail to an american company, I didn't think that the government would give away land that they were renting out in the form of tree farm licences for basically nothing. You can never predict what a government can ram down your throat and then try to convince you that it's good for you because they've been bought off by big business interests. Who would for ever thought that the government would let the mining and forestry companies police themselves when it comes to environmental protection issues, just because something seems improbable doesn't mean it's impossible.
Privatization is just a nice way of saying we're too stupid to run this business, I'll just about guarantee that there have already been studies done to access to profitability of privatizing our rivers. All that I'm saying here is be vigilant, the government has done lots of things in the past that ten years earlier would of seemed highly improbable to the point of being impossible in most peoples minds.
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Btw Clarki the current licencing model could be changed with the stroke of a pen, we have a majority government, they can change whatever they want to.
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Btw Clarki the current licencing model could be changed with the stroke of a pen, we have a majority government, they can change whatever they want to.
Um what part of 23% of license sales going to the gov. Instantly means they can sign away a new license model?
If I bought a house with 2 friends, and payed 23% of the cost im not able to just sell the whole house by signing a dotted line. I can sell my share, but not the other 77% my friends own.
Same thing here. The gov. doesn't have the legal ability to just change the whole model.
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Guides are gives special treatment by being allowed to take non residents fishing when other non residents are not allowed to fish. There were reasons non residents were restricted but why were guides allowed to take their clients fishing during these closures? The ides was to reduce the anglers so residents were gives the opportunity to fish with less pressure.
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Um what part of 23% of license sales going to the gov. Instantly means they can sign away a new license model?
If I bought a house with 2 friends, and payed 23% of the cost im not able to just sell the whole house by signing a dotted line. I can sell my share, but not the other 77% my friends own.
Same thing here. The gov. doesn't have the legal ability to just change the whole model.
I think you are seriously mistaken.
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This issue is way bigger than the subject of fishing licenses and moose tags. One of the biggest protections for public access to rivers in Canada has been the navigable waters act that held such waters were open to public use. That allowed you and me to walk, boat etc along a river below the high water mark. The Harper Government changed the navigable waters act so that it only applies to rivers that permit a ship of more than 3 meters draft and there are not many of those. The end result for us is that river banks and streambeds that were previously public property may now be licensed or sold off to industrial users etc. You can expect a slow erosion of your access opportunities.
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more info: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/bc-wildlife-agency-dismayed-at-big-game-hunting-changes/article22097825/
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I think you are seriously mistaken.
And how am I mistaken?
Or were you naively thinking that you could say and get me to think otherwise? ::) ???
Lets break down the way fishing licenses operate vs hunting licenses.
There is no limit to how many fishing or hunting licenses available in a year.
Both have regulation books, fishing regs discuss restrictions (when/how its closed) were hunting regs discuss general open seasons (ie when/what is open).
To fish or hunt for certain species, you need to buy a tag.
Here is where things split for residents.
Fishing: I can buy any species tag I want and fish for/retain these species (up to the quota) like anyone else who has purchased the tags.
Hunting: I can buy select tags, provided I hunt within the GOS. I am able to pursue certain game/individuals outside of the GOS provided I have been succesful in a Lottery system (LEH).
That is where the change in category A tag allocation is occuring. Now I do not agree with it at all, and have written and sent a letter stating my opinion off to the FLNRO minister and my MLA.
Guides are gives special treatment by being allowed to take non residents fishing when other non residents are not allowed to fish. There were reasons non residents were restricted but why were guides allowed to take their clients fishing during these closures? The ides was to reduce the anglers so residents were gives the opportunity to fish with less pressure.
And what documentation do you have of this occuring/being allowed? below are the regs for the Skeena System with canadian-resident only restriction, and tell me where it says guides are able to legally guide non-resident aliens on Canadian resident only days. Also put the Dean River general speel as well.
BABINE LAKE 6-6
No fishing within a 400 m radius of the Fulton River, Aug 15, 2013 to Sept 15, 2013
Closed all year east of a line from Gullwing Creek to the south shore of Babine Lake
No fishing within a 400 m radius of the mouth of Pinkut Creek, Aug 15-Sept 15
That section of flowing water between Babine and Nilkitkwa lakes is designated Babine River (see map 2 page 59); Regional
stream regulations apply.
BABINE RIVER 6-8
No fishing below the fence to the confluence with Nichyeskwa Creek, Aug 15, 2013 to Sept 15, 2013
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays from the juvenile fish counting weir located at the outlet of Nilkitkwa Lake
to the Nilkitkwa River confluence, Sept 1 - Oct 31 (See map 7 page 61)
Closed all year between signs posted about 100 m above and 80 m below the adult fish counting fence, located approx. 1.8 km
downstream of Nilkitkwa Lake
Open all year in the stream channel known as “Rainbow Alley” located between Babine and Nilkitkwa lakes (see map 2 page 59)
Fly fishing only (a) from the Fort Babine bridge downstream to signs posted 100 m above the adult fish counting fence (including
Nilkitkwa Lake), during open times and (b) from signs about 80 m below the adult fish counting fence to Nichyeskwa Creek, June 16-Sept 30
Bait ban
No angling from boats below adult fish counting fence; location of fence described above
Class 1 water Sept 1-Oct 31; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31 from the juvenile fish counting weir located at the outlet
of Nilkitkwa Lake downstream to the Babine River’s confluence with the Skeena River (See map 7 page 61)
BULKLEY RIVER 6-9
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, Sept 1 - Oct 31
Canadian residents only on the Telkwa River Sept 1 - Oct 31 (see Telkwa River)
Closed all year above Morice/Bulkley River confluence∑
Bait ban, Aug 1-Dec 31∑; bait ban all year for Morice R. and Suskwa R.; no bait ban for Two Mile Creek
No angling from boats from Morice River to CNR bridge at Barrett, Aug 15-Dec 31, and in Moricetown Canyon or within 100 m
downstream, all year
Class II water Sept 1-Oct 31* (see Suskwa River, a Bulkley tributary) & Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31∑
KISPIOX RIVER 6-30
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, Sept 1 - Oct 31
Bait ban (EXCEPT Hevenor Creek)
No angling from boats, no powered boats
Class II water Sept 1-Oct 31; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31
See Skeena River/Kispiox River confluence
KITSEGUECLA RIVER 6-9
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, all year
Bait ban, Sept 1-Dec 31
Class II water all year∑; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31∑
KITSUMKALUM (Kalum) RIVER 6-15
Canadian residents only on Saturdays from the outlet of Kitsumkalum Lake to Glacier Creek confluence all year (See map 3 page 61)
Canadian residents only on Sundays for the entire river all year
Class II water all year∑; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Aug 7 - May 31
Bait ban Jan 1-Mar 15
KITWANGA RIVER 6-30
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, all year
Bait ban, Sept 1-Dec 31
Class II water all year; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31
LAKELSE RIVER 6-10
Canadian residents only from the outlet of Lakelse Lake to the power line crossing, located 3.5 km upstream of the Lakelse
River mouth, all year (See map 4 page 61)
Cutthroat trout release above CNR bridge, Mar 1-Apr 30
Fly fishing only between Lakelse Lake and CNR bridge, Mar 1-May 31
Bait ban; no powered boats
Note: The mouth of the river is designated by signs 1.7 km below Lakelse River logging road bridge
Class I water all year; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-May 31
MORICE RIVER 6-9
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, Sept 1 - Oct 31
No fishing from signs near outlet of Morice Lake to Gosnell Creek, Jan 1-Sept 30
No fishing for finfish other than salmon from Gosnell Creek to Lamprey Creek, Jan 1-Aug 31; See British Columbia Freshwater
Salmon Supplement
Bait ban (all parts)
Fly fishing only from Gosnell Creek to Lamprey Creek, Sept 1-Sept 30
No angling from boats, Aug 15-Dec 31 (all parts)
SKEENA RIVER (Mainstem Only) 6-10
There are two separate Class II waters on the Skeena River (non-residents require separate licences describing which section
they are fishing): (a) from Exchamsiks River to 1.5 km above Kitsumkalum River (known as "Skeena River 2"), July 1-Sept 30; and (b)
upstream of 1.5 km above Zymoetz River (known as "Skeena River Section 4"), July 1-Dec 31; Steelhead Stamp not mandatory for
Skeena River 2 unless fishing for steelhead. Steelhead Stamp is mandatory in Skeena River Section 4 during the Classified Waters
period from July 1-Dec 31
Canadian residents only in Skeena River Section 4 on Saturdays and Sundays in two zones: (a) Shegunia River confluence to
Sedan Creek confluence July 1-Dec 31 (See map 5 page 61), and (b) Chimdemash Creek confluence to 1.5 km above Zymoetz River
confluence, July 1 - Dec 31, (See map 6 page 61)
SUSKWA (Bear) RIVER 6-8
Canadian residents only on Saturdays and Sundays, all year
Bait ban
Class I water all year; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Sept 1-Oct 31
TELKWA RIVER 6-9
Canadian residents only on the Telkwa River Sept 1 - Oct 31 (see Bulkley River)
ZYMOETZ (Copper) RIVER 6-9
Closed all year from McDonell Lake downstream 3 km to signs
Closed all year between signs in Zymoetz Canyon
No fishing above the sign at the transmission line crossing (below Zymoetz Canyon), Jan 1-June 15
Bait ban
Above Limonite Creek (Zymoetz River A): Class I water Jul 24 - Dec 31; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Jul 24 - Dec 31;
Canadian residents only on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays Jul 24 - Dec 31
Below Limonite Creek (Zymoetz River B): Class II water Jul 24 - May 31; Steelhead Stamp mandatory Jul 24 - May 31;
Canadian residents only on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays Jul 24 - May 31
Dean River Classified Waters
All anglers are required to buy a Classified
Waters Licence to fish the classified portions
of the Dean River (see Table for specific
areas and dates). There are no limits on the
number of days which a Canadian resident
may fish the classified sections of the Dean
River.
A Non-Resident Alien (see definition, page
88) is allowed only one Classified Waters
Licence for the Dean River, and may only fish
one classified section of the Dean River (see
map page 48) for a maximum of 8 consecutive
days per year regardless of whether guided
or unguided. A non-guided Non-Resident
Alien wishing to fish the Class I - Main
Section of the Dean River, from Crag Creek to
signs 500 m above the canyon, must enter an
annual limited entry draw held in mid-March
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If you are going to quote regulations, suggest you do a better job.
5. Are non-resident alien anglers required to hire a guide during the Classified Waters Period?
No, but there are limitations. If a non-resident alien angler desires to fish during restricted times i.e.
Canadian resident-only times and zones, they may do so by hiring a guide in some cases. This is
permitted on rivers where guiding is allowed during Canadian resident-only times and zones. See
Table 1 below for more information.
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The gov. doesn't have the legal ability to just change the whole model.
I think you are seriously mistaken
nothing you quote has anything to do with the legal power of the Government and the Legislature. Our ability to fish under license and the structure of that licensing system exists purely at the governments' pleasure and they can change it as they see fit. Most of the changes in fees, ability to fish or not fish certain waters how and who is done by regulation which government can change as it sees fit. the only thing that can stop them is the fear of losing power.
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nothing you quote has anything to do with the legal power of the Government and the Legislature. Our ability to fish under license and the structure of that licensing system exists purely at the governments' pleasure and they can change it as they see fit. Most of the changes in fees, ability to fish or not fish certain waters how and who is done by regulation which government can change as it sees fit. the only thing that can stop them is the fear of losing power.
I dont quote anything yet nor do you guys, rather we are both making assumptions.
My assumption is like all government related instances and agreements there is a policy/contract/legal document binding the terms that are set. The gov. Cant just legally sign them away if other parties interests are involved.
Your assumption is no such thimg occurs so basically the tov. has free range to change anything at any time.
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If you are going to quote regulations, suggest you do a better job.
5. Are non-resident alien anglers required to hire a guide during the Classified Waters Period?
No, but there are limitations. If a non-resident alien angler desires to fish during restricted times i.e.
Canadian resident-only times and zones, they may do so by hiring a guide in some cases. This is
permitted on rivers where guiding is allowed during Canadian resident-only times and zones. See
Table 1 below for more information.
For starters thats from april 2012, our reg book is 2013-2015.
2nd you need to do a better job om quoting regs considering that q&a isnt even part of the reg book.
But nice try.
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My assumption is like all government related instances and agreements there is a policy/contract/legal document binding the terms that are set. The gov. Cant just legally sign them away if other parties interests are involved.
The government is going to destroy peoples homes in the Peace River area without the consent of the owners. The Social Credit government of W.A.C. Bennett did it on the Columbia, burnt peoples homes with all contents in them when they would not leave. So do not put your faith in the integrity of politicians, there is a reason for the saying " politicians are like sperm, only one in a million turns out to be human ". ;D
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I dont quote anything yet nor do you guys, rather we are both making assumptions.
I am not making any assumptions. There is no binding legal right to sportfish let alone a locked system of licensing. As I said licensing structures is set by regulation not legislation. I think these are facts of how government operates that you don't understand.
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So you think that a law enacted in 2012 does not apply now? Guides are gives special treatment not afforded to others. Non residents can hire a guide and be allowed to fish waters closed to other non resident anglers. That is special treatment for guides.
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I have heard talk about how the Thompson R. might eventually turn to limited entry system in order to fish the steelhead in it because of their limited number. Right now it's all hearsay but if the Gov't. ever decided to go this route you can be darn sure they'd be selling them off to the highest bidder which would likely be non-residents. Hopefully this will NEVER happen but the government is not listening to biologists and regional managers when it comes to over harvesting the sheep in Region 4 of the East Kootneys because of the new allocations they've given the guides/outfitters. It's a recipe for total disaster!
The bottom line is do we want any sort of privitization when it comes to our wiildlife be it fish or huntable game! If you feel that the residents of British Columbia should have prior treatment over foreigners in this regard then it would be in your best interest to sign the petition or better yet, write a letter to your local MLA showing your displeasure that this backdoor deals between the government giving preference to guides/outfitters is a travesty! Our rivers could be next in the not too distant future.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?113151-BCWF-Wildlife-Allocation-Petition-Please-Sign!
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I am not making any assumptions. There is no binding legal right to sportfish let alone a locked system of licensing. As I said licensing structures is set by regulation not legislation. I think these are facts of how government operates that you don't understand.
Agreed on the right to sportfish. But your ignoring the breakdown and allocation of the license revenue to other organizations, like ffsbc who has the provincial stocking contract. Ffsbc is funded by license fees, and the stocking program is paid for by everyone who buys a license.
The key word in that last paragraph being contract, a legal document affected by legislation.
So you think that a law enacted in 2012 does not apply now? Guides are gives special treatment not afforded to others. Non residents can hire a guide and be allowed to fish waters closed to other non resident anglers. That is special treatment for guides.
Well if we go back I mention show me in the regs, not show me a q&a document not referred to by the reg book.
And as for the 2012 question, are you using the 2011-2013 reg book, or the 2013-2015 booklet atm?
And what seems to be forgotten is the general public. unlike the tag allocation decision which directly affects around 5% of B.C's population, river privatization would see the population of BC having to pay for river use, further the public does not take kindly to the sale of crown properties. I could also mention the policy issues of river privitization with regards to prov parks, public bridges, logging road crossings, etc
In closing, the parent issue needs to be addressed. I have taken the time to write my mla, and the minister. If you truely believe river privatization is a possibility, stop trying to tell me, im not changing my stance. Use your energy elsewhere so the gov't doesnt think the prioritization of non-residents for bc game is appropriate.
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One can only hope that as you grow, you will become more educated and understand life as it really is. No sense confusing you with facts, your mind is already made up.
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http://apps.nrs.gov.bc.ca/pub/ahte/angling/removal-westmere-lake-water-specific-regulation-listing
--check out the rationale for the regulation change... westmere was a walk in lake with no ice fishing.
--rationale... the lake is being drawn down to a level where fish cannot survive. There are many lakes in the area that are under water license where the primary use is for human. Not even a sniffle over this lake loss for fishing yet.
--privatization in the sense that other users are unnecessarily excluded by licenses and regulation.
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no privatizaition :) no way !