Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: NexusGoo on October 13, 2015, 09:01:04 PM
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Hey all,
Was out yesterday and managed to land a small chrome spring jack, was thinking it looked a bit different than any other I had hooked before. Low and behold when I went to clean it, I was met with the 2 most perfect skeins. Now I've never seen a female jack chinook before, any one else?
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What you caught was not a jack, it was a Jill. Although rare, they do exist. I caught one some 8-9 years ago and was asking myself the same question. At the time, this was the best response I could find:
C&P from another forum:
A 'jack' salmon is a sexually mature male salmon that returns to spawn one year earlier than his 'normal' year class. A 'jill' is the female equivalent and although not as common as jacks, they do exist. Jacks and Jills are obviously a smaller size than those salmon living out their entire life cycles since they spend one less year feeding in the ocean. The size difference is most notable with coho as returning jacks/jills more resemble small trout than salmon. As we know, cohos put on the bulk of their size in the last 4-5 months of their normal life cycle. Cohos or bluebacks are typically in the 2-4 lb range in May but will reach upwards of 20 pounds by Sep/Oct.
Jacks and Jills occur in all salmon species with the exception of Pinks. Its not entirely known why they don't exist in Pink stocks other than the fact that they already have a very short life cycle (2 years). Jacks/Jills are very common in Sockeye. One of the reasons why we don't really notice them is even an early returning 3 year old fish can easily be 3-5 lbs. The next time you catch a sockeye that seems a bit on the small side, it could very well be a jack/jill.
Early returning Chum salmon (3 year olds) are normally not called Jacks/Jills as 3 year olds make up a fairly significant proportion of normal 4 and 5 year old returns. They could be called jacks/jills though if our definition of such is 'a fish returning one year earlier than the majority of its cohorts'.
The purpose of a jack/jill salmon is, like its big brothers and sisters, to propogate. Although Jills will find ready 'dance partners' with mature males, Jacks aren't so lucky. Jacks are usually chased off by larger males and either prevented from spawning totally or, they find a way to scoot in on the action and deposit their cargo (adding to the genetic mix). In fish stocks that might be heavily exploited commercially, Jack salmon might be the difference between a successful spawning season and an unsuccessful one (if too many mature males are harvested).
Finally, Jacks/Jills do not 'begat' more Jacks and Jills in the future, just because they spawn. Early sexual maturity in salmon is more an act of randomness than anything else. So the next time you catch a Jack, release it with respect and let the lil guy do his thing.
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I personally would doubt a jill is the a sexually precoscious female in the same sense as a jack without some technical means of measuring the fishes age (ie a scale reading). More than likely it is a stunted female. 'Jill' coho does I caught came from specific samll streams where the coho were invariably smaller than local streams. FWIW I've also come across anglers who refer to all small salmon (ie cohoes of 3 to 5lbs) 'jacks'.
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Thanks for the clarification guys, guess it was as rare as I was thinking
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I caught a hatchery coho Jill last weekend , although a smaller stream it was mixed with much larger coho , springs and chum
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2 year old sexually mature female coho are rare but are often seen on the C-V; 3 year old sexually mature female Cultus Lake sockeye are common and are regularly used in the hatchery broodstock program. It makes sense a few chinooks would exhibit this unique phenomenon as well.
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How can it be rare but commonly seen? It's a contradiction.
Any search on Google and other references that are compiled by fisheries biologists don't mention "jill's". Milo's reference is about the only one via google that mentions them at all and at that it's just assertion.
Not saying anyone is lying just some solid evidence and supporting facts.
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Who are you saying is lying RalphH ?
Just wondering.....
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How can it be rare but commonly seen? It's a contradiction.
Any search on Google and other references that are compiled by fisheries biologists don't mention "jill's". Milo's reference is about the only one via google that mentions them at all and at that it's just assertion.
Not saying anyone is lying just some solid evidence and supporting facts.
Interesting. Two studies that identify jill sockeye are mentioned in Pacific Salmon Life Histories by Groot and Margolis of the DFO Biological Sciences branch. Killick and Clemens identified jack and jill sockeye and their relative abundance (Jills comprising just 4% of the combined samples) in their 1963 study of Fraser River runs 1915-1960, and in their 1962 study, Major and Craddock found Jills were nearly as abundant as jack sockeye in the OK River in some years.
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How can it be rare but commonly seen? It's a contradiction.
I said coho jills were rare and Cultus sockeye jills were common. Where's the contradiction?
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I said coho jills were rare and Cultus sockeye jills were common. Where's the contradiction?
OK, hold it. You said, and I quote: "2 year old sexually mature female coho are rare but are often seen on the C-V"
From this statement it can be inferred that coho jills are generally a rare occurrence, but not so rare in the C-V. It can also be understood as a contradiction because if something is rare, it can't be often seen. ;)
Your next sentence is clear, but RalphH couldn't/didn't want to contextualize it: "3 year old sexually mature female Cultus Lake sockeye are common and are regularly used in the hatchery broodstock program."
I know exactly what you wanted to say, and I didn't see it as a contradiction. RalphH, on the other hand, desperately tries to discredit what you say whenever an opportunity presents itself. I don't know where the bad blood comes from; nor do I need to know.
Mine is the biggest anyway. ;D ;D ;) :P
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I know exactly what you wanted to say, and I didn't see it as a contradiction. RalphH, on the other hand, desperately tries to discredit what you say whenever an opportunity presents itself. I don't know where the bad blood comes from; nor do I need to know.
back in 1977 dave came to a run ralph was already working, ended up pulling two beauty steelhead from behind him. wild of course.
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Who really cares?
Jacks are males, females are Jill's.
Just because one sex of prematurely reproductive salmon, be it: Sockeye, Coho, Chinook (spring, king there's another argument) are more common than the other doesn't mean they don't happen.
They're natures insurance policy.
... and rare?
I rarely catch Jill's of any kind but have, but many get out more than I do >:(
It's all semantics and personal assessment of the issue.
They're both there.
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Pics of the "Jill" or it didn't happen :P :o ;D
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will post when I get home from work later :P
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Mine is the biggest anyway. ;D ;D ;) :P
Of that I have no doubt ;D
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This thread is getting creepy :o
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Interesting. Two studies that identify jill sockeye are mentioned in Pacific Salmon Life Histories by Groot and Margolis of the DFO Biological Sciences branch. Killick and Clemens identified jack and jill sockeye and their relative abundance (Jills comprising just 4% of the combined samples) in their 1963 study of Fraser River runs 1915-1960, and in their 1962 study, Major and Craddock found Jills were nearly as abundant as jack sockeye in the OK River in some years.
thanks. That's all I wanted. From what I know Coho Jack's typically account for 10 to 20% of the males in a run. Sexually precocious males are observed in many salmonids including rainbow trout and Atlantic Salmon. I've never seen mention of "Jills" in any bone fide publication about Pacific Salmon.
Milo I don't contradict everything Dave says` for a linguist that's a ridiculous generalization. Nor is their bad blood towards him on my part. I have no idea why you'd be motivated to say this. I did not paraphrase what Dave said correctly but saying coho Jills are rare but "often seen" is a contradiction.
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Milo I don't contradict everything Dave says` for a linguist that's a ridiculous generalization. Nor is their bad blood towards him on my part. I have no idea why you'd be motivated to say this. I did not paraphrase what Dave said correctly but saying coho Jills are rare but "often seen" is a contradiction.
Ralph, PLEASE read more carefully. Nowhere did I say you contradict "everything Dave says". You are putting words in my post that I never typed. I said you try to discredit him "whenever an opportunity presents itself". That's hardly a generalization.
Let's give credit where credit is due. Dave may well be a cranky old bugger :P, but his willingness to share his vast knowledge in the field that he is so passionate about and involved in a true treasure for all of us.
Oh, and by the way, I did give him $hit for his contradictory/ambiguous statement, so there! ;)
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Here's what you said
RalphH, on the other hand, desperately tries to discredit what you say whenever an opportunity presents itself. I don't know where the bad blood comes from; nor do I need to know.
(emphasis added).
even worse than to say 'contradict'. Absolute hogwash and baseless. I neither tried to discredit what he said nor is there bad blood on my part or any desperation. I won't even get into the ad homineum stuff with you. It's unnecessary.
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I won't even get into the ad homineum stuff with you. It's unnecessary.
You are right. It's unnecessary.
And it's "ad hominem", BTW. ;)
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(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12109002_10207802212671430_4030150076970263873_n.jpg?oh=9b453374b36f677725b523d8ee9f9751&oe=5691355C)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12144814_10207802212591428_2201277787294369760_n.jpg?oh=c3b3b4c6a7486dd6386f6c4b58f7c05b&oe=568CA247)
sorry for the blurriness it was pissing out, she taped out to 55cm
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(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12109002_10207802212671430_4030150076970263873_n.jpg?oh=9b453374b36f677725b523d8ee9f9751&oe=5691355C)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12144814_10207802212591428_2201277787294369760_n.jpg?oh=c3b3b4c6a7486dd6386f6c4b58f7c05b&oe=568CA247)
sorry for the blurriness it was pissing out, she taped out to 55cm
How about those himomenumes!
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but it's got white gums! 8)
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You are right. It's unnecessary.
And it's "ad hominem", BTW. ;)
used to be patriotism was the last refuge, now it's the correct spelling of Latin. :P
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Pathetic how people overreact and rant over little things. Too many raving lunatics out there.
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... with an adipose. Uh-oh.
notice the teeth though! Real herring shredders!
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Can't be positive looking off my iPhone but looks like a Chinook to me.
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It is a bit of a CSI type pic.
Lighting, entrails, yada, yada, yada...
"Where's Bones when you need her?"
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If you cant tell that's a spring, you shouldn't be allowed to fish. Pathetic how many people have no idea what they have caught. Even more pathetic how many people plead I thought it was....
Know the regs and know the species or stay home. too many goofs out there. :o
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Sorry Johnny Canuck I don't have a pic of my coho Jill , If I knew this post was going to be started I would have taken a pic , just not part of the generation who takes pics of everything they do ::) , probably would have dropped my phone in the river
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Just a few thoughts that have come to mind:
the fish in the photo is a spring and it's a female. If you want to call it a 'jill' then call it a jill.
The topic was about a 'Jack Chinook Doe' but there was discussion about most every other salmon species yet there is considerable variability between species in terms of life cycle. Best I know pinks and coho have the most uniform life histories while there is considerable variability among sockeye, chum and chinook.
Take sockeye which may live 3 to 5 years or more and rear in freshwater anywhere from 3 or 4 years to all but zero heading downstream in a matter of weeks, like chum and pink. More commonly they spend about 2 years rearing in a lake.
Among sockeye, (chum and chinook for that matter) fish that spend one year in saltwater don't seem unusual. This is also common among steelhead and Atlantic salmon. Whatever we call those fish they are true adults. With Atlantics such fish are called grilse while among sockeye etc they seem to get called jacks and jills.
Coho generally go to sea in the spring and return in the late summer or fall of the following year - about a year and a half. Coho jacks spend just 1 summer - a half year or less and return with a mature length of 11 inches to 16 or 17 inches at a weight of less than a pound to maybe 2 or 2.5 . In my experience most chinook jacks are similarly sized relative to their longer lived brothers and sisters though are somewhat larger than coho jacks - running more in the 16 to 18 inch range with some larger. Some stocks of steelhead also have similar sized fish usually under 20 inches and weigh 2 or 3 lbs. These are fish that likely have not spent a full year at sea.
I haven't found a lot of studies of jacks but I did find this one by HT Bilton from 1978
"Returns of Adult Coho Salmon in Relation to Mean Size and Time at Release of Juveniles"
This study look at close to 5,000 coho at Rosewall Creek and studies over 1500 coho jacks and reported:
A total of 1,569 jacks was recovered.... As had been expected, there were no jills (precocious females).
My experience is the same - I've killed hundreds of jacks in over 50 years and 2 were females - both caught the same year in a small unnamed creek north east of Mission one measured 15 inches the other 17 inches. Never saw a coho over 20 inches in that creek. Were they jills with only 1/2 a year of sea feeding? I don't know.